PLAYING CARILLON WITH OTHER PERCUSSION INSTRUMENTS

Discussions on various technical aspects of carillon instruments and standards.

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Re: PLAYING CARILLON WITH OTHER PERCUSSION INSTRUMENTS

Postby margaretpan on Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:47 pm

Gideon has done his own designing of bell profiles, so he may well know.

Indeed -- that's why I'm inclined to believe his claim about stiffness mattering more than size :)

However, since a flat bar would also get longer or shorter with temperature changes, I'm not clear why that would reveal anything that a bell wouldn't.

Yes, that's the point -- a bar should respond to temperature in exactly the same way as a bell made of the same material would, but I'd guess it's easier to measure small changes in the size of a bar (eg with a micrometer), or small changes in the stiffness (say by hanging weights off of it, or otherwise bending it slightly), than it would be with a bell. (Also it's easier to disentangle the effects of changing length and stiffness on those measurements for a bar geometry.) And a bar is easier to make and transport, and less valuable in case of damage....
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Re: PLAYING CARILLON WITH OTHER PERCUSSION INSTRUMENTS

Postby Gideon Bodden on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:02 am

margaretpan wrote:
when the clapper strikes, a stiffer wall deforms less under the impact and rebounds to its original shape more quickly. In other words, the natural response time of the thicker/stiffer wall is faster, and that means a higher natural vibration frequency.


This is put too simple, it would mean that the softer the clapper strikes, the higher the pitch of the bell. Soft striking means less deformation of the bell, which will then rebound to its original shape more quickly, producing a higher frequency. Not so! The frequency is independent of the impact of the clapper and the degree of deformation of the bell.
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Re: PLAYING CARILLON WITH OTHER PERCUSSION INSTRUMENTS

Postby margaretpan on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:04 am

This is put too simple, it would mean that the softer the clapper strikes, the higher the pitch of the bell. Soft striking means less deformation of the bell, which will then rebound to its original shape more quickly, producing a higher frequency. Not so! The frequency is independent of the impact of the clapper and the degree of deformation of the bell.

Right, sorry for being misleading: I agree the response time/frequency is independent of the deformation depth, assuming the shape of the deformation otherwise stays the same. For identical impacts, the greater stiffness of a thicker wall causes both a shorter response time and a shallower deformation -- but the shallower deformation *does not cause* the shorter response time. (Probably I should've just left the depth part out the first time.)
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Re: PLAYING CARILLON WITH OTHER PERCUSSION INSTRUMENTS

Postby FrancesNewell on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:33 pm

This is all very interesting and makes me wonder about carillons whose bells are cast with a different percentage of metals:
I am thinking in particular about Koen Van Assche's new instrument. He wrote:
In the bronze 3% lead is used in order to have a much shorter sound, which worked perfect on the test bells
1. Are such bells and their tuning MORE or LESS affected by changes in temperature?
2. Is it EASIER or HARDER to shave off some of their metal if you have to re-tune them?
3. How many other carillons out there are cast with a different composition of metals?
Mobile carillons?
Frank Della Penna's Cast in Bronze bells?
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Re: PLAYING CARILLON WITH OTHER PERCUSSION INSTRUMENTS

Postby Gideon Bodden on Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:24 am

Ok, if a bell gets warmer, its pitch goes down. In fact -3/12000 octave per degree (Centigrade). For instance, let's take a bell A', 925 mm. diameter, and hum at 220.0 Hz. When this bell gets 30 degrees warmer, its pitch will go down by 9 cents. The frequency of the hum will be 218.86 Hz. Should this difference of -1,14 Hz be (only) the result of the bell expanding, then the diameter of the expanded bell should be (220.0/218.86)*925 = 929,82 mm. Let me tell you, this A'-bell does not get 5 mm. bigger in Summer than it is in Winter! The properties of the metal alloy are known, if you know the metal composition you could look up the expansion rate.
So, however it is true that heating up the bell will make it expand a little bit, this is not enough to have a significant influence on the pitch the bell produces. The influence of the temperature on the pitch of the bell is (for the greatest part) explained by the variations in hardness of the material.
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Re: PLAYING CARILLON WITH OTHER PERCUSSION INSTRUMENTS

Postby JohnGouwens on Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:24 am

Thank you, Gideon! Very interesting indeed! (Also, this is a perfect example of what this "Technical Discussions" sub-forum is for!) Any thoughts about whether the impact of temperature is changed by the introduction of lead, as in the "Bronzen Piano" project?
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Re: PLAYING CARILLON WITH OTHER PERCUSSION INSTRUMENTS

Postby JohnGouwens on Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:41 am

Now HERE is something painful! This is at Stanford University, the carillon is an old Michiels, somewhat re-tuned by Eijsbouts. The organ is the Murray Harris (restored by Rosales) of Stanford's Memorial Church. There's no easy way to reconcile the tuning of the two, and boy does it ever sound painful!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WzK4KpN9aI
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Re: PLAYING CARILLON WITH OTHER PERCUSSION INSTRUMENTS

Postby FrancesNewell on Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:50 am

Yes, John, Please delete my redundant post.
I was wrestling with my Smartphone and accidentally posted it twice.
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